Comments on Blag Hag: On the sexist failures of geek culture

I got to say, I found the article repulsive in the...

2012-01-14T16:20:04.672-08:00

I got to say, I found the article repulsive in the extreme. Among the problems with it was:

1) After discussing how men and womens worst fears are different, the article went on to hotly defend Alyssa Bereznaks right to subject Finkel to what it argued was mens worst fear.
At one point the author presents an entirely self-constructed rationale for Bereznaks acts, and proceeds to regard it as factual.

2) After implying that people who disagree with the article do so because they are misogynists, there was a massive amount of abuse heped on gamers in general with no attempt at balance. Quotes like " you're a gamer... you voided a black pool of
nihilism down your own unsteady leg at age 16, and you've been
floundering in it ever since." ... " the welts of social ostracization still open and weeping upon their hairy backs" is only the tip of the iceberg.

I would submit that people may have been offended because this is offensive. No ulterior motive required.

3) The article presents the reaction to the Alyssa Bereznak article as coming from only male gamers. Something of a massive straw man. In fact, the article went mainstream and the negative response came from men and women, gamer and non-gamers. Although the volume of response from gamers were larger, the article never acknowledges that anyone but male gamers had a negative reaction. And it certainly doesn't attempt to determine if the median response from gamers were worse.

4) After stating that Feminism is a real field of study,it goes on to spew a large amount of unfounded assertions as facts. For example, sexism in games ispresented as the fault of gamers, rather than game designers. The fact that games withoud barely-clad women tend to sell just as well as the other sort is not mentioned.

3) The article is, ironically, quite misogynist. And I don't mean the mansplaining format. It pretty much attempts to erease the existence of gamer women. They are only "Wannabe frag dolls". It also attempts to trample the opinions of women who do not agree. If they do not feel like Tait explains to little girls that they ough to feel, they are only "Uncle Toms looking for a warm corner in massahs attic".

Which is rather an extraordinary statement to make.

There are a lot of other problems with the article, it is like an onion of ick, with more and more layers the deeper you cut. But those are the ones who stood out the most for me.

What was a lot more disturbing, I found, was that ...

2012-01-14T15:40:41.233-08:00

What was a lot more disturbing, I found, was that he followed up his statement about men and womens worst fears being asymetric by defending Bereznaks right to subject Finkle to mens worst fear.

glad i am happily married. . .no more dating bulls...

2011-12-25T08:59:56.628-08:00

glad i am happily married. . .no more dating bullshit

The carriage returns may have disappeared, but I s...

2011-09-21T07:39:03.797-07:00

The carriage returns may have disappeared, but I still agree entirely with your statement. I tried my best to get through his post, but between the sheer length of it and the letter to my daughter schtick, I figured it just wasn't worth my time.

Oh, christ, all my carriage returns disappeared. O...

2011-09-20T19:16:15.185-07:00

Oh, christ, all my carriage returns disappeared. Oh well...

"2. The quote about men fearing embarrassment...

2011-09-20T19:15:31.731-07:00

"2. The quote about men fearing embarrassment and women fearing death
really helped put some things in perspective to me as I hadn't really
thought that it was that up front in most women's minds. That does seem
scary."I thought that quote was interesting. I'll repeat it here: "Men
and women live in different worlds. At core, men are afraid women will
laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them." -
Gavin de BeckerTait interprets this to indicate differences in
objective risk by gender. However, to me it looks like a claim regarding
perceptions of objective risk--that men perceive embarrassment to be
worse than death. Outside of context, though, the quote is ambiguous.As
for the rest of the article, it's kind of an interesting look at a
subculture that I don't know much about, but I found the writing rather
tiresome. Leaving out the "letter to my daughter" schtick would have
helped tremendously. My ability to suspend disbelief was not sufficient.
His hypothetical daughter, however many years in the future, is going
to be interested in an explanation of the gaming culture's
internet-scandal-of-the-week? -And- she knows what juggalos are?! Worse,
this baffling premise leads him to talk down to his (actual) audience
under the pretext of talking down to his (hypothetical) daughter. Ick...

I agree with SonofRyan's point 5. The overreac...

2011-09-20T14:27:58.204-07:00

I agree with SonofRyan's point 5. The overreaction of the gamer community was full of mean-spirited responses and is indicative of something that needs to change, yes, but her article was mean-spirited and full of comments that indicate an insufferable level of "my preferences are natural law"-ishness. Gamer culture needs to work on cutting down the misogyny - at least to bring it down to the level of the surrounding culture. True.

However, Geordie seems to be defending her right not to be attracted to him because of his involvement with gaming. That isn't really what pissed people off, in my opinion. It was that in her piece, the "not being attracted to him" was brought up to a level where the idea that she might actually be attracted to him despite his involvement with gaming was ridiculous. She didn't just say "I didn't like him." She said "The idea that someone like him might be worthwhile is a GREAT subject for a humorous article, since it's so funny!"

1. Overall a good article, though sometimes a bit ...

2011-09-20T08:57:14.265-07:00

1. Overall a good article, though sometimes a bit hard to understand as a person who doesn't closely follow M:TG

2. The quote about men fearing embarrassment and women fearing death really helped put some things in perspective to me as I hadn't really thought that it was that up front in most women's minds. That does seem scary.

3. A part at the end bothers me, the rather gratuitous description of violence hypothetically done against him by his wife was a bit bothersome as I think humor like that is pretty disturbing, and there's something of a cultural blind spot when it's a woman inflicting that on a man.

4. It does bother me that I often will think of myself and my hobbies as being at an intellectually higher level than many others and it bothers me that this sort of thing happens. I really need to keep a better eye out for this.

5. I do think he makes the mistake of seeming to assume that, because the backlash against it was even more morally reprehensible than the article itself, that the article ought to be excused, when it was written in an extremely rude and flippant manner. I dunno am I wrong? Should it be excused?

I'm having a hard time accepting some of my ki...

2011-09-19T21:52:38.601-07:00

I'm having a hard time accepting some of my kid's attitudes (2 boys, 13 and 12)... they are both gamers, but I strongly believe that it's more their age than the gaming since their peers act the same, no matter if it is during soccer practice, facebook chats or after school... Or maybe, like the author suggests, actually spending time with a girl is the cure.

Glad we got the subhuman thing cleared up :-)

2011-09-19T14:18:08.413-07:00

Glad we got the subhuman thing cleared up :-)

And again, who the fuck is saying you (or anyone e...

2011-09-19T13:41:29.983-07:00

And again, who the fuck is saying you (or anyone else) HAS to date gamers? This is the crux of the problem, you think the rest of us are saying something that we are not saying. Here's a hint: if you think I'm trying to force someone to date anyone else, then you should keep rereading my comments until you actually get what I'm saying. I do find it hilarious that you thought I said that so much you had to clarify it about three times, including telling me that I can't "deny her right to have whatever dealbreakers they want to." Can you please point to where I tried to deny her right to have her own dealbreakers? The one thing you did say that made sense is the following: "You can have whatever opinion you want about other people's dealbreakers." Exactly. And as for myself and a shitload of other people, her reasons are bullshit. Standard shallow assholery, in fact the exact type of shallow stupid thinking that men are excoriated for (rightly so).

jose, the point never came down to someone preventing this woman from being an asshole. Nobody's trying to take away her right to do anything, but acting like this is certainly going to provoke a response from people, and that response is generally going to be negative. You may think it's perfectly acceptable to not date someone for superfluous, stupid reasons, but it doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree with said stupid reasons, nor does it mean we have to be silent and "respect" a shithead belief. She had every right to not date him because she didn't like his shoelaces, but that doesn't mean anybody else has to look at that opinion as worth anything but derision.

No sir, I didn't say that. In fact, I explici...

2011-09-19T13:31:55.435-07:00

No sir, I didn't say that. In fact, I explicitly said that there is no problem with Ms. Bereznak's desire to not date nerds, and she is free to steer clear of those who play Magic.

What people choose to present in their online dating profiles is a matter of putting your best foot forward, and many, men and women, choose not to list what they do for a living. Ms. Bereznak freely admitted she didn't do her research when she forgot to google Mr. Tait. What one does for a living or other details that are important to you should probably come out over the course of one-on-one messaging with the person. Honestly, though, that's neither here nor there.

If you go on a date with someone who turns out to not be your type, yet treats you with respect, the decent thing is not to turn around and post that you just had a date with the "world champion of nerds." You chalk it up to remembering to do your research better next time, and move on. There was nothing to suggest that Mr. Tait did anything untoward, that he's acting like the "NiceGuy™", or that he's doing anything other than behaving gracefully.

Standing back on the internet and laughing at the gall of the king of the nerds for deceiving his way on to dates with normal women is petty and cruel. Mr. Tait deserves better.

Collin said she considered nerds as subhuman. I on...

2011-09-19T13:10:41.798-07:00

Collin said she considered nerds as subhuman. I only considered his assertion and took it to its obvious implication to show him how he didn't understand her position.

This woman offered a perfectly valid reason why she wouldn't date gamers: she doesn't want to. And you and I have absolutely no say about who she will date and who she won't date.

You can have whatever opinion you want about other people's deal breakers. What you can't do is to demand I date gamers if I don't want to. Other thing you can't do is to deny the right of people to have whatever deal breakers they wish to have, regardless of whether you find them stupid or not.

haha, good one, that "not make it the most noticeable thing in his profile". You're a funny one :'-D

No comment on judgmental statements.

jose, did you actually read the article? Nobody i...

2011-09-19T12:02:11.634-07:00

jose, did you actually read the article? Nobody is saying that if you are a human being, then everyone should have to date you. Nobody. It's a strawman, and a pathetic one at that. This woman did not offer any sort of reasoning why a gamer would be a bad person do date, she just judged him on his gaming as soon as she found out about it. In fact, she was even upset that he dared to dress like a normal person! Don't know if his scarlet "G" was in the wash that day or what, but I'm pretty sure you're allowed to say what you want in an online dating profile. The fact is, nobody's saying she should have to date him, or even that you can't reject someone because they're a gamer. What we're saying is that rejecting someone based on their hobby, while knowing nothing about it other than tired and obvious stereotypes, is stupid. It also doesn't make a good impression when you shred someone in a widely-read magazine article when that person did nothing more than have a hobby the author didn't like. And as if to ice the cake, she writes for a tech site! It's like me writing for a Jebus magazine and getting upset at the people who don't like me calling them "people who believe in sky wizards."

Simply put, if he had been a total obnoxious asshole on their date, he might have deserved the literary ass-beating he got. The fact that the only thing he did was be a gamer and not make it the most noticeable thing in his profile makes her article a total overkill and a perfect way to paint herself as a shallow shit-show of a human being.

Collin, I think you got the actors in this drama m...

2011-09-19T11:57:43.345-07:00

Collin, I think you got the actors in this drama mixed up. Bereznak, in her article, was never referring to Geordie Tait, the author of the article Jennifer linked to. Bereznak was writing about her date with John Finkel, a Magic: the Gathering world champion. Tait wrote an article about the gamer community's response to Bereznak's article and how that over-the-top, vitriolic response highlights a problem with sexism and sometimes outright misogyny in the gamer community.

It's been a few days since I read Tait's article, but ISTR that he acknowledges that Breznak's article wasn't nicest and she should be ashamed of how mean-spirited it was. Some people seem to think, based on their comments, that Tait's article *should* have been about or was about Bereznak's meanness, rather than about the way in which the gamer community's response, but Bereznak is really a different issue than what Tait was covering.

So, since nerds are human, it's okay to hide ...

2011-09-19T11:45:54.942-07:00

So, since nerds are human, it's okay to hide that defining aspecf of their life in order to get dates (dude was the world champion and didn't even mention it as one of his hobbies. Come on), and women have no right to complain. You're saying that qualifying as a member of the human species should be all it takes for women to date you.

Ms. Bereznak is well aware dedicated magic players are human beings. She just doesn't want to get involved with one because she doesn't like that game. Simple.

This is a real blind spot for a lot of people, unf...

2011-09-19T10:59:54.787-07:00

This is a real blind spot for a lot of people, unfortunately. The problem isn't that she doesn't want to date nerds; the problem is that she sees nerds as subhuman. It's the haughty, aristocratic attitude toward Mr. Tait that is Ms. Bereznak's problem. She is offended that someone like this managed to "infiltrate" their way into her life.

That is a very narrow, almost stilted reading. Ye...

2011-09-19T10:37:32.247-07:00

That is a very narrow, almost stilted reading. Yes - any person has the absolute right to dismiss anyone for any reason -- no question. What no person has the right to do is dismiss someone as being without value or subhuman. That was the fundamental problem with Ms. Bereznak's article, along with the assumption that Mr. Tait deserved his embarrassment. She saw Mr. Tait as being something less than her, and, in the most immature, mean-spirited fashion possible, proceeded to try to embarrass an apparently decent guy (not a NiceGuy©®™) who hadn't done anything other than follow his passions in life.

"being a nerd would be reason enough for ANY ...

2011-09-19T08:38:05.225-07:00

"being a nerd would be reason enough for ANY woman to dismiss him out of hand."

It is.

ANY reason is enough for ANY woman to dismiss ANYONE out of hand. No woman is obligated to give any man a "Fair Chance" or anything else they may have convinced themselves they're entitled to.

Her basic point was that if you leave certain cruc...

2011-09-19T07:26:55.310-07:00

Her basic point was that if you leave certain crucial bits of information out of your profile then you shouldn't be surprised if you disappoint the person who shows up to meet you. This is something that women hear ALL OF THE TIME when it comes to online dating, only we're told that it's our appearance that we have to be completely accurate about down to the tiniest detail.

She doesn't want to date nerds. She's allowed to have that opinion. I personally would much rather date a nerd than a jock and for me, the deal breaker would be having to hear all about the football season on our first date.

It's a great article! Thanks for sharing. :)

2011-09-18T22:53:10.818-07:00

It's a great article! Thanks for sharing. :)

I agree with this view! I'm so disenchanted wi...

2011-09-18T22:51:38.723-07:00

I agree with this view! I'm so disenchanted with the male atheist community at the moment. Whenever I read a post about feminism on an atheist blog, I feel a glimmer of hope for our community, but then I read the comments... :(

Just for the record, Mr. Tait's article goes o...

2011-09-18T18:39:59.863-07:00

Just for the record, Mr. Tait's article goes on to make various legitimate points. For example: nerds are not uniformly perfect mates; non-nerds are not uniformly chauvinist cretins; and developing an attitude that women aren't dating you because they're stupid bimbos doesn't help anyone except the women who proceed to avoid dating you, etc.

However, he massively detracts from his points by spending so much time on the reaction to Ms. Bereznak's post. As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, it's instructive to read her original post which is preserved here: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/08/my-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player (although even the Australian copy added her after-the-fact initial paragraph warning that the story is mean), not the US version which has been edited to be less offensive.

Mr. Tait seems to think that nerds are outraged that Ms. Bereznak doesn't want to date them. However, if you actually read her post, she's clearly upset that a nerd merely tried to date someone like her. It's perfectly respectable for nerds to find this offensive. Furthermore, when someone suggests that he or she is out of someone else's league, it's perfectly normal, albeit slightly immature, for the second party to retort that in fact they are out of the first party's league. It doesn't actually mean that the second party thinks that the first party is obliged to be sexually available: it's just trading insults.

Finally, I agree with other people that the article is so saccharine that I had to keep reminding myself that people are often condescending to their children, so as not to think that Mr. Tait was being condescending toward women.

I'd direct your criticisms of the first paragr...

2011-09-18T18:21:32.971-07:00

I'd direct your criticisms of the first paragraph more to Jen in highlighting the piece than to the author. Although, in fairness I'd volunteer to be the first in line to tell Geordie he has...issues...with the sidenotes/bars/conversations.

He's one of magic's most well known writers, writing to an audience of competitive players at StarCity, published on magic's "biggest deal" website. The overwhelming response to it on SCG indicates to me that the intended audience was able to negotiate through the mtg culture.

Thank you for sharing the link, Jared. And, havin...

2011-09-18T17:30:32.225-07:00

Thank you for sharing the link, Jared.

And, having read the article, I have lost some of my sympathy for Ms. Bereznak . She is allowed her dealbreakers. But, the tone of the article seems to say that nerds and geeks are a lower class of human that should put up disclaimors lest they surprise real people.

That said, I will say that the article that Jenn linked to does bring up other instances of sexism in nerd and gaming culture. I don't think he needs the Bereznak piece to tie anything together or to make that message of "things are tough for women in nerd culture". And, having read her article, referencing her article now seems to detract from that message rather than add to it.

Still, sexism acknowledged. I'd like to see what I, personally, can do about it other than just be aware of my own behavior.