Saturday, July 2, 2011

Richard Dawkins, your privilege is showing

Unless some clueless cad is impersonating you, in which case ignore this post. EDIT: PZ confirms these comments are from Dawkins.

But I'm fairly certain it is you making these profoundly ignorant comments on Pharyngula (mainly because I've seen you say similar things before, in both style and topic). You began with:
Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Thankfully another Pharyngulite said exactly what I was thinking:
Did you just make the argument that, since worse things are happening somewhere else, we have no right to try to fix things closer to home?
And that's when you tried to backpedal with a clarification, but just ended up digging your hole even deeper.
No I wasn't making that argument. Here's the argument I was making. The man in the elevator didn't physically touch her, didn't attempt to bar her way out of the elevator, didn't even use foul language at her. He spoke some words to her. Just words. She no doubt replied with words. That was that. Words. Only words, and apparently quite polite words at that.

If she felt his behaviour was creepy, that was her privilege, just as it was the Catholics' privilege to feel offended and hurt when PZ nailed the cracker. PZ didn't physically strike any Catholics. All he did was nail a wafer, and he was absolutely right to do so because the heightened value of the wafer was a fantasy in the minds of the offended Catholics. Similarly, Rebecca's feeling that the man's proposition was 'creepy' was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Muslim women suffer physically from misogyny, their lives are substantially damaged by religiously inspired misogyny. Not just words, real deeds, painful, physical deeds, physical privations, legally sanctioned demeanings. The equivalent would be if PZ had nailed not a cracker but a Catholic. Then they'd have had good reason to complain.

Actually, yes, that was the argument you were making. But you chose to cover up that argument with an even stupider argument. Congratulations!

Frankly, this is disappointing for a number of reasons. One, because it was so refreshing to read PZ's post and knowing a guy out there "gets it." Two, because you're kind of an idol of mine, and it makes me want to cry a little when you live up to the stereotype of a well-off, 70 year old, white, British, ivory tower academic. But let me spell it out for you instead of just getting mad (though I'll do that too):

Words matter. You don't get that because you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a nigger, a kike. You don't have people constantly explaining that you're subhuman, or have the intellect of an animal. You don't have people saying you shouldn't have rights. You don't have people constantly sexually harassing you. You don't live in fear of rape, knowing that one wrong misinterpretation of a couple words could lead down that road.

You don't, because you have fucking privilege.

And you're not going to "get it" until you sit down and actually put forth the effort. I know you're a busy man, so here's a quick little parable on why you currently don't get it. And if you still don't get it - which is probably true, since these things take a long time to understand - I will happily sit down with you at TAM and try to explain it. I'm sure lots of other Skeptical ladies will be happy to help me.


  1. If you wallow with pigs in mud.....

  2. Great, the self-proclaimed rationalists are wasting time and effort about an incident involving a chat betwee a man and a woman in an elevator.

    I suggest everyone read this and think for a minute.

  3. If I  single and met an attractive woman am I or am I not allowed to invite her back for coffee?  and yes I might hold out some hope that it would lead to something more.
       If The woman says no and  I except that and walk away am I suddenly a monster? what if it is the woman asking me, should I start complaining? Seriously, act like adults and grow up a bit.

      PS this privilege rubbish is getting very dull, people have all sorts of views coming from all sorts of backgrounds. your prejudice is showing.

  4. The human race exists because men approach woman.

  5. Atheists really need to distance themselves from dawkins, the guy keeps calling for our genocide, completely bereft of reason and rational thought, and also advocating an alliance with christianity because they are a lesser evil. Of all The Religions he has chosen yet another abrahamic religion in the hopes of annihilating the "unmitigated evil of islam" as he calls it.

    Maybe hes old, or have drunk too much on privilege to see the nuance in everyday life, even Carl Jung changed his mind about islam when he visited muslim countries, but that takes real effort like actually getting out of whatever cave dawkins lives in.

  6. The whole language of "privilege", as far as I can tell, comes from anti-rationalist postmodern philosophy, see here e.g.:

    I find it rather amusing that a large part of the Skeptics™ community has glommed onto this crap...

  7. Um... Are you Black? It doesn't look like it. If you aren't black, you don't get to use n***r without blanking it out. You don't. Especially not when making a point about how words matter. This goes for faggot (yes, this slur has been used against me). 

    Calling out sexism while being racist and heterosexist discredits your point. Because there are queer women and WoC. Reading things like that are exactly why the atheist community remains so unrelentingly white. 

  8. Great, the self-proclaimed rationalists are wasting time and effort
    about an incident involving a chat betwee a man and a woman in an

    I suggest everyone read this and think for a minute.

  9. The human race exists because men approach woman.

  10. living in constant fear of rape?
    you should be so lucky.

  11. Great, the self-proclaimed rationalists are wasting time and effort
    about an incident involving a chat betwee a man and a woman in an

  12. Jen, if that guy asking Ms. Watson to join him for coffee is oppressive, creepy, whatever - how exactly do you suggest that men and women ever get together?  Or would you rather that they didn't?  Or should men wait to be approached by women - but wouldn't that also be oppressive, creepy etc?

    And please, please stop this 'privilege' nonsense.  When was the last time anyone said that you were subhuman, had the intellect of an animal, shouldn't have rights and so forth?  I'm not saying that nobody has said this to you, but was it perhaps some religious wingnut spouting that stuff in response to your athiest stance? Maybe he said that knowing you to be a feminist and just wanted to piss you off?

    If so, bear in mind it came from a wingnut. That is your demographic to target: religious fundamentalists.  Just because said wingnut had a penis does not mean that everyone with a penis holds the same point of view.

    Dawkins was right; the whole thing was a storm in a teacup, a silly girl making a big fuss about nothing.  There are a lot of women who have it far, far worse than a polite offer of coffee and chat in an elevator.  Seriously, some people need to grow up.


  13. "
    And please, please stop this 'privilege' nonsense.  When was the last time anyone said that you were subhuman, had the intellect of an animal, shouldn't have rights and so forth? "

    You do, Covid--

    "Dawkins was right; the whole thing was a storm in a teacup, a silly girl making a big fuss about nothing." 

    "Silly girl," someone so small they make "fusses about nothing."

    She's certainly not a child and she's certainly intelligent enough to be given more respect that snubbing her off as insignificant.

    Seriously? I know you don't experience men hitting on you the same way women do, but come on. If the fuss is about nothing then why has there been literally thousands of comments on several blogs in which people have been talking for 6 months? Seems to have made some people so angry over a widdle bitty girl. Your comment is precisely what treating someone subhuman and like they only have the intelligence of an animal literally looks like. 

    What was actually a big fuss about obviously something you figure is really nothing, The fervor and anger this woman's experience has received has been utterly brutal, especially from men. It's a big deal. Most men just don't want to deal with the implications of it actually being one. 

    You have a penis and you side with the very view point that put women in uncomfortable interactions. Silly little boy.  

  14. Would agree with the men's rights major premise. You should check them out. I have a feeling you just might be horrified.

  15. So, basically, if you approach a woman you find attractive ever, you are contributing to rape culture, and if you ever think a woman is overreacting to anything, you are contributing to rape culture.  Got it. I suppose I should be an enlightened, feminist man and never disagree with you on anything, ever again.

  16. Oh, get real. To paraphrase Louis CK, when you type "n***r," you put the meaning of the word into everyone's head. That's what words DO. You're doing the exact same thing  as you would be if you typed out the whole word, ie. generating an idea.
    To say that "only black people can say it" or even *type* it is patently absurd. It's sweeping the real issue under the rug. It's an ugly word, and it conjures up all sorts of undesirable connotations. But look at the context in which it's used; she isn't calling anyone a nigger or a faggot, she's saying that those words are hateful and shouldn't be used. I agree, the world would be a better place if nobody used hateful language. But the sentiment behind it is what matters. The idea that we should use some words but others are unacceptable is ridiculous. They're just words. Just like shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits.

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  26. "Words matter. You don't get that because you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a nigger, a kike. You don't have people constantly explaining that you're subhuman, or have the intellect of an animal. You don't have people saying you shouldn't have rights. You don't have people constantly sexually harassing you. You don't live in fear of rape, knowing that one wrong misinterpretation of a couple words could lead down that road."
    What planet do you live on. Clearly you need medication if this is how you see the world. I doubt anyone would want to rape you anyways.

  27. You still aren't getting it. Hitting on a woman, who you're alone with on an elevator at 4am, & asking her back to your room, is creepy, inappropriate & intimidating. It blows my mind that men don't get this. It's all about CONTEXT. Google this - Canadian woman brutally attacked on hotel elevator in Mexico. Then tell me women are over-reacting. Have you ever been sexually harrassed, raped, assaulted or attacked. Many women have. I'm one of them. By a seemingly "nice" guy who chatted me up in a public but private place. The guy who attacked the woman in a Mexican hotel elevator...started out by flirting with her....she declined...& almost died for it.

  28. i m having this discussion and being made to feel horrible in my atheism group on fb right now...they have male admins and i ve been threatened to be banned

  29. Toni, please...Understand this if nothing else: the atheist movement is a rich white male privilege bowel movement. Like the 'revolutionaries' who grew their hair long and wore flowers in the 1960's who only wanted women for sex on strictly male-defined terms and conditions, the atheist subculture of the 21st century is nothing but one more white male good ol' boy club that allows women to participate like the "token court Jews" of yore, and they only want women for lending credibility to their groups and for serving the coffee and providing them with sexual gratification, without any regard for what it costs the women on the receiving end of their orgasms.

    It's not men who face the physical, psychological and economic ramifications of an unwanted pregnancy whether that sex is consensual or not. And they don't care, because men have never given a damn about women (except for what they could get from us for their benefit at our expense).

    What do men like Richard Dawkins know about what it really means to be a poor, marginal woman living in a rural part of America where the closest Planned Parenthood clinic is a 2 hour drive away and has been shut down because of defunding, leaving tens of millions of American women unable to defend themselves against a life-threatening pregnancy that resulted from a rape, and all the laws that were passed since the War on Women was launched by reactionaries and conservative men in Congress who took the country by storm in the 2010 mid-term elections?

    I am a rad fem who is also an atheist. I do not participate in ANY atheist groups because of the misogyny these "rational" men claiming "superior" intellect routinely dish out to women. These men won't wake up until atheist/skeptic women leave that movement in droves and form their own atheist groups and team up with atheist rad fems and join our groups in which they can share without being smacked down for their experiences as women living in a male-dominated world.

    You are NOT a lesser-than. And your time and gifts are too important and too worthwhile to give to those unappreciative and disrespectful of them who never had your best interests at heart anyway.

    I devote all me time to the rad fem hubs, which are much more enlightening anyway. Please consider friending me on FB and joining the Women's Educational Cooperative Group and some of the rad fem groups.

    Jacqueline S. Homan, author of Divine Right: The Truth is a Lie

  30.  I noticed the rampant misogyny exhibited by these supposedly "rational" men three years ago on the Atheist Nexus group. I left because of it. They employed the same sort of "gas-lighting" tactics on the women that the narcissistic male 'revolutionaries' of the 60's counter-culture movement did. Social justice and all the other happy horseshit was only for the men; women's needs and rights were never respected and factored into the equation. Ditto for the New Atheist movement.

    That's why as an atheist who is also a radical feminist, I refuse to spend any scarce resources on going to atheist/skeptic conferences and devote any time or effort to that movement. Women's human rights are my first and foremost concern, because time and time again, it has been proven that women have very few, if any, real allies and if we don't use our resources and time and energy to help improve things for ourselves and our daughters, no one else will have our backs. The conspicuous absence of male atheist participants in the United Against Women rallies and counter-demonstrations has driven that point home.

    Several atheist "friends" from Atheist Nexus contacted me after I left, begging me to give the movement another chance, exhorting me to "just have patience" with this relatively young movement, that things take time. Well, as a woman I am a member of the oppressed class and the oppressor class is the patriarchy to which men, however unintentionally, belong. Women have been suffering indescribably cruel oppression under patriarchal societies for the past 5,000 years. And all we've ever gotten told was pie-in-the-sky bullshit about how eventually, if we just wait patiently like good girls until after the men get their "more important issues" taken care of first, we'll get our needs and rights addressed. We'll be treated fairly instead of as  disposable sperm receptacles consigned for most of history to reproductive enslavement  — a situation that lawmakers have taken women back to with this War on Women. Well, that "better day" never came, did it?

    Whether it was the counter-culture
    of the 1960's or the growing atheist subculture of the 21st century,
    nothing gets better for us (in fact, it usually gets worse) because our
    needs and concerns are always dismissed by men as being "unimportant" or
    "special interest issues" that aren't worthy of men's time. So, if women's basic human rights aren't worthy of their time, they're movement does not female support while women DO need it. Because as long as there's male privilege and female oppression as a result of that privilege, they will eat your daughters' breakfasts just like they ate ours.

    Male privilege at women's expense — not religion — is the Rosetta Stone
    of patriarchy, and misogyny is its lifeblood. Religion is just one of many socially accepted vehicles through which misogyny is normalized and institutionalized, but science is also another. And all the men claiming
    to be the "good guys" have unjustly benefited and been unjustly enriched
    by it and therefore are the oppressor, whether they're religious or
    skeptic, white or non-white, rich or poor. And as the oppressor, the
    onus of dismantling the very same system of unearned male privilege that
    led to this attack on birth control, abortion and equal rights for
    women is squarely on the oppressor; NOT the oppressed.

  31. How is this a rational argument?

    This argument predicated on fear of rape is about as sensible as any other argument predicated on fear.

    Do you know that men are more likely to be victims of  ALL violent crime (with the exception of rape).

    More men are probably randomly beaten and murdered in elevators than women are raped. Should men who find themselves in a late night elevator with other men not talk to each other lest they intimidate them?

    Supposedly the arguments about women being rightly afraid of men and men needing to make extra effort to be aware of that fear, is based on the possibility of violence.

    If so, where is the outrage over the fear of violence from other men (even though its far more likely to happen than being raped as a woman?)

    If a man is planning on raping you or not, whether or men who are not rapists talk to you in similar situations has nothing to do with it. Your fear is contributing nothing to your safety or gender equality it is simply creating divisiveness and supporting a culture of fear and victimhood.

    The problem with this issue is that the focus on not what the man did, or the way he said it, but simply the fact he said anything at all. If this was a case of a man being belligerant or invading physical space or not taking no for an answer I would be supporting saying that is asshole behaviour and for people not to do it.

  32.  Got any data to support the evidence of your position, the MRA/PUA pablum that you're feeding to the public?

  33. Human overpopulation has been happening because advance in technology, medicine, agriculture etc has rendered natural selection obsolete.  Overpopulation is NOT caused by RAPE you dimwit

  34. Well well well, another abusive male shitstain heard from who has NO clue about history.

  35. Gosh you are angry.  However, I agree with you on most points. Men are privileged, white men more so, generally, and something must be done to remedy that. I also wholly agree with your points on contraception, we don't have those problems in the UK.  Also it is not just white male privilege, women vote these laws in to and women vote the men in that make these laws.  However, asking a woman in an elevator to go for a coffee is hardly tantamount to rape or any kind of anti-feminist agenda. He was more forward than I would have been but there is no indication that force or coercion was used. And who knows he may have just wanted to chat. I shared a table with a female complete stranger today waiting for a theatre show to start, we chatted, we sat together through the show, discussed its merits afterwards, over coffee, then I came home, alone. We never asked to swap numbers, emails or made arrangements to see each other again. That is what civilised people do. We interact. To live in a world where I felt I could not do that would be no different than living under the Taliban. Rather than ranting that a man made what appears to be a perfectly valid pass at a woman, and took the refusal as a refusal, you should be targeting the 'One Million Moms' mentality amongst the female voters. That is where true power and change will come from. PS My sensibilities are neither delicate nor offended, but I would like some constructive guidance from you on what I could do that would not offend women, other than dying that is.

  36. In a nut shell, it comes down to manners and social awareness.  I would not even get into an elevator with a lone woman at 4am for the simple reason that it would be uncomfortable for them at the least and quite possible frightening, given the media portrayal of creepy, menacing men in elevators. I certainly would ask one to come to my room. However, this was at a TAM event, and having met some attendees of a TAM event some time back, the men there were not the most socially aware men I had ever met. Just the socks and sandals a number were wearing, and Science/maths related t-shirt designs freaked me out, and I am a 6'3" male martial artist and I wasn't comfortable around them. 
    I am not being facetious here, but could you constructively tell me when it is appropriate to approach a woman, with friendship in mind? It may lead to more than friendship, but that is where it has to start. Also I have several female friends that I would not wish to have sex with, but I'll go for coffee or go shopping with them. Only Neanderthals and those raised on porn actually expect women to concur that a shag with a stranger would sounds like a good idea at 4am in an elevator. 


  37. Jacqueline S. Homan, Yes I do realise that asking a woman to your room at 4am is a very creepy way of asking. it is not that I have a problem with, but your general anger. It is not healthy to be that angry. No I have no idea what it is like to be a woman, but I have been a victim of assault when I was younger.

  38. The oppressor has NO fucking right to dictate to the oppressed about how we should and should not feel about getting nothing but shit and shoved in it our whole lives for no good  reason other than not being male. I have every right to be angry. 

  39. You don't have a dog in this fight, so don't mansplain to me how to properly fight against sexism and misogyny. Save your know-it-all pontification for the global fart convention.

  40. Maybe you should clarify what you mean. Are you saying that you believe rape that results in a child being carried to term is so ubiquitous as to contribute significantly to over-population? 

  41. No, I am saying that forcing women and girls to give birth against their will, especially as the result of rape, is a major human rights violation. Our bodies are not MALE PROPERTY!

  42. It isn't just pablum.

    Males Are more likely to be victims of  ALL violent crime (with the exception of rape).  They are also more likely to be homeless, and far more likely to be imprisoned.  They also suffer from a far greater occupational fatality rate, as well as mortality rate at all ages.  
    Some of this has got to do with the social safety net for men vs women.  Some of this also has to do with biology, as well as patriarchal attitudes.  How, much of each - we don't know.

    Incidentally, I actually agree that a) rebecca's incident was threatening, and b) dawkins' comments were inappropriate and dismissive and privileged.

    But that doesn't mean MR's should be dismissed as groundless.


    When did we start prosecuting thought? In this world, pick a fucking encounter that one feminist signs off on as being appropriate and I'll find you five that object to it. This is in fact a larger issue that on any topic, you cannot convince everyone! Period!

    What Dawkins said was appropriate! Actions need prosecution, not thoughts! The person who used his words to talk to someone in an elevator could have just wanted to talk! To him, the fact that she was female might be irrelevant! He might have been gay! Wonderful as I am sure SkepChick is, she is full of BULLSHIT to assume that everyone who talks to you at 2:00AM and wants to continue said conversation is somehow trying to get into her pants! Its sheer fabricated nonsense on her part!

    Lastly, calling Dawkins as a white privileged man is no LESS offensive than someone being called nigger or cunt! Its HIS right to be offended by don't come arguing that offense cannot be taken... This is the problem...I can choose to get offended at anything! Just slap the name "feminism" to it and off you go! IF we are talking equal pay, no means no, etc..then there is a point. There we are trying to influence behavior that hurts women and men.This is just SkepChick being stupid and everyone following suite!!

  44. Do you want to go get some coffee?

  45. No, you are not allowed to proposition women whenever and wherever you feel like it. That's the point. You should keep your infantile mouth shut and wait for a proper, non-threatening context to present itself. Like say, a singles mixer, or a dance, or some other event where people go to meet for companionship. Propositioning a woman on an elevator shows complete retardation, selfishness and lack of self-control. If a man is so beholden to his penis that he can't control himself in the presence of women, then he should commit himself for medical treatment because he is clearly sick.

  46. Firstly, yes at the hands of 'some men' not males as a gender. How ignorant can you be that you lump every male into the same category? You rant about opportunities being denied to women, especially poor women, but you will find that poor men too have their share of struggles. You make this an issue of gender, when really it is a social/economic issue that affects both sexes.

    Yes in the US women have to go through some horrible things that need changed - unwanted pregnancy (including rape) and backwards religious restrictions based off of the bibles view that women are inferior. But get off your high horse when blaming men as a whole, and you will find that many Christians are women who are as culpable (excluding perhaps the Catholic Church) as the men are.

  47. Your misandry is startling and I actually feel sorry for you, being so full of hatred. You speak of historical conquest and rape yet when did you ever experience that? Does that happen today - are American and British soldiers burning, pillaging and raping in Afganistan? No because as a society we've fucking moved on.

    And your last statement is just bogus, I have achieved everything I have and everything I will do without infringing on the rights of women. I earned it through hard work and application - fuck you, to say I am privileged because I am a man and therefore have not the same struggle you have.

  48. Actually, you are allowed to proposition a woman anywhere you like, that's the joy of a free society. Just as she is allowed to reject you and you are allowed to get on with your day.

    All these people whine about nothing. All you have to say is stop and then they are oblidged to stop.

    Women talk about being equal, but if they can't handle a conversation in an elevator without breaking into a panic attack then clearly they are not equal to men.


  49. The key to feminism is to blame men for everything. The problem with feminism is its extreme bias, if a woman gets raped its an outrage, if a man gets raped its fine because it happens to women all the time.

    Women use the "things are worse elsewhere" argument all the time to discredit problems of men, but if someone tells them "things are worse elsewhere" they lose their shit and rage.

    It's pointless to argue with you, $50 says you are some crazy left wing nutjob *looks at your blog* YEP.

  50. A man in an elevator at four in the morning inviting you back to his hotel room wants to talk? Really? The high probability is that he wants to have sex. And you are alone in an elevator in a foreign country, and he probably outweighs you by fifty pounds. And you don't know a damn thing about him.

    How is this not an uncomfortable situation? Don't do that.

    Also, 'privileged white guy' is way more awesome than nigger or cunt. Privileged white guys are never thought to be subhuman. Assholes, maybe. But they always had the right to vote, and they were never property.

  51. "All you have to say is stop and then they are obliged to stop."

    Excuse me while I go have a laugh/cry fit.

    Every rape, molestation, and/or harassment victim ever.

  52. "All these people whine about nothing. All you have to say is stop and then they are oblidged to stop."

    Obliged by whom, Batman?

    Are you too dense to realize that this is exactly why it's a bad idea to cold proposition women at night, in isolated spaces?

    "Women talk about being equal, but (...stuff...)"

    Wanting equality is not the same thing as pretending it's already here.
    Until sexual assault statistics and attitudes about it change significantly, women are perfectly justified in mistrusting poorly behaved strangers.

  53. Just talk to them first. Something relevant. Get to know them a little bit - honestly only takes a couple days, then Invite them to something that involves a bunch of other people and an activity they might enjoy. If you want more than that, suggest lunch sometime. Continue on.

    I know that I feel like an asshole if I turn someone down, so some girls will stall/avoid you instead of saying outright that they aren't interested. If the stalling is legitimate, they'll be obvious about it.

    Just make it clear that you are interested in *them* and not necessarily their body parts, and you should be fine.

    For meeting women, join something. Hiking group, orchestra, volunteering, something regular that you enjoy doing.

  54. Being sexually propositioned while alone in an elevator is scary. Being sexually propositioned by someone you don't know in any way - implying that he's asking you out because he thinks you are hot - is demeaning.

    It was, an offer of coffee *in his hotel room*. At four in the morning.

    I would suggest that a man actually know a woman before they start asking her out. I would suggest that said man wait until they know each other pretty well to bring up sex, if they are too impatient to let the woman do it first. I suggest that he not do it in a place where if he takes a 'no' personally, the woman cannot get the hell away from him.

    You do not trap someone, propose sex, and get insulted when they say it's creepy. Or when they say no.

  55. OMG this is THE most ridiculous thing I have seen. You are correcting Richard Dawkins with an argument based on his age and skin color. And you also dont even understand his argument after explainting it to you in plain words.

  56. Did it ever occur to you ladies that the man in "elevatorgate" was socially awkward, and lacked confidence. He may have approached Rebecca in the elevator where there was no one else around because he didn't want to get shot down in front of a bunch of people? Amazing how many intellectual resources you utilize in finding ways to demonize men, yet none of the same effort goes into giving a little understanding to the guy in the situation. The other messed up aspect of this "philosophy" is that good looking men are much less often seen as "creepy" or "inappropriate" because the woman is more receptive to his advances.

    I also think leaping to the guy wanting sex from a request to get coffee is idiotic and puts the worst possible light on the situation. That is the problem really. Radfems always put men in the worst possible light. This will always undermine your cause; you are so rabid in your belief that most people are turned off by your ideas.

  57. I think this whole incident was blown out of proportion. The guy talked to her politely and asked her for coffee. Now most of the women are saying that because he spoke to her she could have been raped.
    I've got news for you she could have been raped even if he hadn't said anything, so if she is that paranoid, maybe she should have stepped off the elevator as soon as he stepped in.
    I think if I was her, I would have felt safer that he spoke to me rather than just being silent.
    Just because a guy was in the elevator all of a sudden rape is practically assumed. .
    I'm sure there have been rapes committed in elevators, but what are the odds? I'm sure the odds are much greater that you could get hit by a car crossing the street, but blogging about that wouldn't be as interesting.
    I'm all for equal rights, but this incident was blown way out of proportion.

    I'm going to have to side with Richard Dawkins on this one. I'm sure he meant no harm or ill will, he was just trying to point out the silliness of it, which I have to agree with.

  58. "I would suggest that a man actually know a woman before they start asking her out."

    Why? Are all women only interested in sex with people they know for an arbitrary length of time beforehand, determined to be appropriate or inappropriate by uninvolved third parties such as yourself?

    "I would suggest that said man wait until they know each other pretty well to bring up sex, if they are too impatient to let the woman do it first."
    Why? Are all women so sensitive about the subject that the mere mention of the word before they have had time to muster their delicate little courage might do irreparable damage to their psyches?
    "I suggest that he not do it in a place where if he takes a 'no' personally, the woman cannot get the hell away from him."

    Here at least we can agree. The rest is just as insulting to women as it is to men.

  59. ALL men benefit from this male supremacist/male self-entitlement culture — at women's expense. As evidenced by all the privilege-poisoned tripe spouted off by ALL the men on THIS blog. If you as a male are not actively working to dismantle patriarchy, to dismantle male privilege, then YOU are part of the problem. The fact that ALL men benefit unfairly from UNEARNED MALE PRIVILEGE in our male supremacist shithole of a world is why ALL men are guilty as charged: Men would rather support the status quo because oppressing women benefits them. All of them. Any man NOT actively working to dismantle patriarchy in all its ugly forms is part of the problem and therefore stands guilty as charged. If most men were NOT self-important, self-entitled male supremacist assholes, life wouldn't suck so goddam bad for women the world over.


    Then why didn't he follow Richard Dawkins into the elevator and chat HIM up and ask HIM to come back to *his room* for coffee?

    "When did we start prosecuting thought?"

    Men do it all the time to women. Men silence women all the fucking time. Anytime a woman tries to speak out or speak up about her rights as a PERSON (which men refuse to acknowledge), and speaks her mind about how SHE feels, every last male chauvinist asshole (which is almost ALL men in any given group) comes crawling out of the woodwork, showing their misogyny (while claiming to support equal rights for women), and denigrating the woman as being "stupid" or "not having a grasp on reality." God(less) forbid that women might object to whatever crap men feel they have a right to dish out in order to slap her uppity self back into her patriarchally-approved/assigned place.

    "Lastly, calling Dawkins as a white privileged man is no LESS offensive than someone being called nigger or cunt!"

    If men as a class, particularly rich white ones, suffered from an entire millenia-long legacy of oppression because of others using their unearned privileges to fuck them over and keep them down, poor, exploited, abused, and oppressed 8 ways from Sunday, then you MIGHT have a point. But that didn't happen, so you don't. "White", "privileged", and "male" never meant "less-than human", whereas "nigger" and "cunt" DO.

  61. Males are the ones most likely to commit violence in the first place!

  62. Privileged white guys also always had the right to pursue an education, get into ANY career they wanted, and had the right to enjoy sex without being punished for it.

  63. actually all she did was say stop. really, go back and look at it - she calmly said stop doing that. but apparently she's not, as you said, allowed to do that. if she does she's mischaracterized as having a "panic attack" ,shouted down, and threatened with violence, rape, and murder. but i doubt you really care about any of that, because your real opinion about women is obvious as you conclude that "clearly they are not equal to men."

  64. wow, you really are quite deluded. you are inherently privileged as a man, and you don't have the same struggle that women do. that's not to say that you didn't have to work at success, but you did get an undeniable leg-up. there's nothing i can do as a man to mitigate the privilege i enjoy. i'm more likely to be promoted at work, and i can walk through a parking garage at night without fear of being targeted by a rapist. those are just two examples of the innumerable privileges that we men enjoy. i may not be able to change the past, and i can't be held responsible for things that happened before my time. what i can do is acknowledge my privilege, acknowledge women's lack of privilege, try not to take advantage of my privilege, and try to help women gain similar privilege. you may not be culpable for the history that created the world as we know it today, but when you contribute to the oppression inherent in patriarchy, by denying that you have and still do benefit from past oppression, and actively attempting to subvert women's attempts to assert their rights, you become culpable.

  65. "More men are probably randomly beaten and murdered in elevators than women are raped."

    WHAT!? Just what the fuck!? I know /way/ more women who have been raped than i do men that were randomly beaten. more than that, i know more women that were put in an icu at the hands of a rapist than i do men that were randomly beaten.

  66. not every man is an unrepentant asshole, and some might actually listen to what you have to say if you weren't so busy blaming them for literally everything wrong in society.

    most men these days didn't ask for male privilege; they were born with it. it was just something given to us, and some of us don't even know it's there. what feminism should be doing is reminding men that it's there and getting everyone to talk about how unfair it is and what can be done to fix it; not shaming men for having it to begin with. i find it hypocritical of you to ask to be treated fairly, but then you treat men unfairly by calling most of them "selfish, self-important, self-entitled male supremacist assholes". please don't lump us with the people that got us into this awful situation in the first place.

    though, honestly, it doesn't matter what you write. this is all cosmetic and doesn't affect how i feel about sexism against women anyway. i'm actively trying to better society for women, not because people like you shamed me into it, but because it's the honest, fair and right thing to do.

  67. This is what radical ideologies do to people. Made them make mountains out of molehills. You can make the argument that in Dawkins' first post he probable didn't word things as he wanted them to come out. Attacking him for this is a classic lawyer's trick. Having these conversation in emotionless/humanless pixel-based text doesn't help to convey meaning at all either.
    Rebecca Watson's incident of shockingly being asked out by......A MALE is not an atheist issue so I wonder why she asked it at the conference anyways. Rebecca Watson plays the victim card more than most and she capitalises on people white knight behavior to get money and legitimacy in the atheist community and probably the feminism one as well.

  68. "Obliged by whom, Batman?"
    By the understand of the society that we live in, just like a man in say Iran would not be obliged to stop.

    "Are you too dense to realize that this is exactly why it's a bad idea to cold proposition women at night, in isolated spaces?"

    So the night makes men into potential rapists.predators? You know what we call people we see threats where they don't exist right? Paranoid. And before you say "Oh but people get attack at night blah blah blah" You should be aware of your surroundings, I walk past people all the time at night in the worst neighborhood of my town. I keep tracking of where they are in my head, but I don't assume they are a threat they are simply an unknown.

    "Wanting equality is not the same thing as pretending it's already here. "

    Please tell me you don't honestly believe feminism is about equality. It is female superiority, and the MRM is just one of the reactions to it. I don't claim the MRM is about equality either for the simple fact that having an organization devoted to the advancement/protection of a subgroup, in this case gender, will never reach equality. The tactics of the MRM are far more respectable then that of the feminists.

    "Until sexual assault statistics and attitudes about it change
    significantly, women are perfectly justified in mistrusting poorly
    behaved strangers."

    Here is where I know you are a troll. You should know damn well that the majority of the violence in the world is directed at men, yet the VAST majority of public opinion and support in all its forms goes to women.
    Attitude about "it?" I can only assume you mean assault/rape in which case you are a willful ignorant to think that the majority of society is at all in favor of female rape/any pain at all.
    Case in point: Female circumcision-illegal. Male circumcision legal and the norm.
    I guess mutilation is a one way street.

  69. I happen to be a straight male atheist. I’m also a survivor of childhood rape and molestation by my mother. She never raped me in the traditional sense, she anally raped me with objects and fondled my genitals regularly.

    I know what it’s like to physically attempt to fight someone larger than you and fail. I also know what it’s like to sit alone and bleeding in the silent aftermath.

    I’m growing a bit tired of the effluent bullshit that flows from the comfortable and privileged misandrists posting bigoted and ignorant comments here.

    I propose that it’s possible to consider equal rights to be… I don’t know… equal?!? As a man, can I fight for equal rights for everyone without being constantly insulted and denigrated by ignorant and spoiled misandrists?

  70. Oh sweet Barack Tapdancing Obama, this fucktwit author said "Richard Dawkins had a stupid argument" (Paraphrasing) and thus, it should be deemed so.

    That makes a lot of sense. Even if the facts line up with Dawkins, this feminist or mangina (can't tell which off hand) is too idiotic to clearly notice that absolutely NOTHING that was done in the coffee situation warranted public outcry, NOTHING. She was not harmed, she was not treated badly, the man was politely exercising his male nature which comes as a result of archaic survival instinct. The very same reason she became defensive to protect her embryo and her body from 9 months of being a sitting duck from predators actually. She was simply acting on survival instinct, and it is pitiful that Atheists could even consider modern feminism as the complaints are purely Darwinian theory explainable reactions to Darwinian theory explainable behaviors. Misogyny is evident in the Muslim world where a woman is virtually shackled and abused, not in THIS side of the world where women are called Princess and legislators, media, academia, the lot bend to a woman's whim at every turn. Pure hogwash.

  71. Well then you are CLEARLY a fascit bigot

  72. Um, you refer to sociopaths and the law already protects women from them.

  73. Why don't you learn something about human nature and STFU. Women protect themselves instinctively from unwanted pregnancies and that's why it even BOTHERED this Atheist movement piggybacking militant female supremacist bigot.

  74. "you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a nigger, a kike.
    You don't have people constantly explaining that you're subhuman, or
    have the intellect of an animal." Jen, have you personally been called or told any of this?You're right words do matter, and in 1981, I took a pledge to fight sexism, misogyny, and the general disrespect of women that was happening then throughout the world; wherever I have found it and in the company of those I meet or conversations I may overhear, I've not failed to respond by either calling them out, or writing letters complaining to media figures guilty of mistreatment of women using their words.And for a bit I tried to sympathise with RWatson after the elevator thing, but after looking into it, her choice was to ignore, or decline the invitation that's it, she didn't appear to be physically assaulted. Gay guys ask me out often&I am not gay, so I decline their offers, so what exactly did the guy in the elevator do wrong?Nothing more than the guys who ask me out who get turned down, right?
    Dawkins was making a point to choose your battles, I think, not that it's not important to address gender problems only if you're a Muslim being physically attacked, killed by being stoned as you're buried chest high&suffer a cruel slow death. To me, and sure I may be wrong, but Dawkins is saying choose your battles well, don't be a hammer and go around looking for any nails you may find to pound in.It seems the RWatson initial elevator thing has been followed by all manner of created divisiveness as it seems more is made of each and every little thing. Atheists, after all, has rejected religion which is one of the most misogynistic actions going on in its injustice towards women from Islam's Sharia Law to Xian Dominionism. I'm a man, a Feminist, and my pledge that I took has not made me

  75. Cont'd ...find the need to go after those in the freethinker/atheist/skeptic community to stop their misogyny and sexism.against RWatson and others who are acting like hammers looking for instances of nails they may see as something they need to pound. I hate all this divisiveness, and I would be the first to call out hatred of women in the skeptic group, sexism seems more prevalent and a really more of a hidden bias societal thing than overt and blatant actions.I'm not an apologist either.

    RW recently at a skepticon meeting gave a talk ridiculing science, what is that about? I may be wrong, I just don't see the bogeymen that RW and a few of her friends seem to.see. But for RCarrier to write about A Plus ending with you're with us or against us, just, floors me, he sounds more like a rightwing TPartier.I mention him only because RW seems to have spawned a clique that has culminated into Atheism Plus, with people threatening to stay away from a particular meeting or refusing to attend a convention if so and so shows up. I mean we are talking about a group that is supposed to be about logic and reasoning, right? Not blatant emotionally charged rantings.
    My Pledge:

    "It is my observation today in 1981, that there is far too much violence, inequality, & disrespect shown to women all over the world, in the forms of sexism, misogyny and more, and it should, albeit, MUST stop NOW & I, as a human being, pledge to do what I can to end the overt, sometimes covert, and too often blatant, abuses of women." -RNash

    "There is far too much violence, inequality, & disrespect shown to women in the forms of sexism, misogyny and more, around the world and it must must stop NOW & I pledge as a male human being to do what I can to that end." -RNash 2012

  76. I hate to take sides, and I don't think I am really, I just thought I'd add to your voice of,'there must be more folks out there who feel the same way,' as you do make some good points, I just learned today RW isn't even a scientist,I had just assumed she was though that doesn't mean I don't think she hasn't anything to say, but as you say she doesn't belong on the same stage with scientists if she is just going to keep heading to a complaint of the mistreatment of women.I for one do what I can to stop women being vilified or treated badly, but RW makes the issues always about her pet peeves(seems to me, and yes I may be wrong).it isn't anything personal against her, she seems more to divide than bring together, and it isn't all b/c of old white men.If she has a real issue she should bring it to bear where appropriately and of course I am not trying to shut her up.just have her choose better arguments.
    I'm not sure you ought join those who want to decline to go to a convention just b/c so and so is there.though, as you say, head to get a snack.

  77. You seem to be equating just asking a woman for coffee as a construction worker might be yelling hey baby's to a woman on the street which most definitely is a move of disrespect, And do not use 'ask respectfully' interchangably with proposition as if any comment made to a woman is an implied sexual proposition as would happen between a john and a hooker.No wonder so many men are confused about how to approach a woman innocently even for just conversation.Do you really think men and women still have to wait for the church social to meet up, to wait for the proper moment sitting on the porch in a swing to just hold hands?We don't live in the Victorian Era, but if we did there'd be tons more sexual encounters due to its forbiddeness.The thing is men and women meet under all manner of situations that don't fall under 'your madeup' proper rules of etiquette.There's no real way to prepare for what you call proper, it's like the old films of showing to kids what evil strangers look like as anything but their uncles, or cousins who may be the pedophiles and not the stranger that looks the part of evil.If a man is respectful to women then he does not have to put on a proper front, he'll be able to be sensitive enough to see if he is making another person, in this case, a woman, uncomfortable and adjust his behavior. And don't call normal people sick as what is sick is your awful view of people, you sound more like a misanthrope than anything else with your target more men than women cuz maybe you think your appearance of magnanimity to women will get you something in return. I mean what makes YOU the great arbiter of proper and what are your qualifications that you think make you able to direct others?You're anal.

  78. Thank you, Susie, BTW, my best-est woman whom I loved(love still after 34 years though she married someone else)more than anyone I ever did, spelled her name without the ending 'e', though. I have to say I appreciate your thoughtful and kind response to the issue, and all men should read your whole comment as many are, or may be confused more than they are anti-women or anti-feminism. Personally, I have never held blanket views about women as they are not a monolith, and I have tried to treat the individual women according to who they are, or my perception of them, I do try to understand them as individuals, as I do men, too, unlike the variety of date books entitled,'How to Pick Women' which I never thought was a good idea since women are not all identical made from a template called female.I was never made in the image of my Dad as he was never around, and there was no male mentor for me to ask questions of about women, life or whatever, so any views I have I thought them through myself. Being sexually attracted to women gave me an incentive(sounds horrible, I know)to learn about women, and not for just the obvious, but I found that meant first of all, I had to listen to them and from that came a part of me that developed into a pretty good listener,at least that's the feedback I've been told by every women with which I have had a good relationship, that 'all women should have a person like me on the side'(this is no joke, several women independently said this, which surprised me, really, but made me feel good too)It made me an all around good listener actually.
    I find that respecting others as individuals men or women goes a long way towards any kind meaningful relationship. I do hate conflict and divisiveness though.
    Thanks, Susie for your thoughtful comments, I'll take them to heart.

  79. Also, it goes a long way when a man says please tell me why you feel the way you do, why are you feeling threatened. I want to understand your feelings though if you will allow me to, tell me all about it if you feel comfortable enough with me to do so.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but men do want to know how women's fears and feelings of threat are so prevalent, and why, or if they don't they should start now. I can't know what it's like for a woman in this society who experiences multiple offers from men each and every day and I guess it really doesn't matter if it's innocent, as going for coffee, or a blatant let's do it in the road kinda thing, the point is I wish I knew what it's like for a woman to go through the day constantly being hit on for them to give men attention of some kind. I'm 62 and still learning about relationships and as I said earlier, at least I'm a good listener or I try very be.B/c I really don't want to inadvertently and unintentionally hurt women by my thoughtlessness and unawareness...or a man as far as that goes, non-violence in word or deed is my motto.

  80. Clearly, this is your view from your brain and for you to understand you'd have to be a woman for a day and get the myriad offers they get on a daily basis from assholes to the good guys.Think of it from outside your brain and try to look at it through their eyes,please.If gay guys all day long made offers to you and b/c you're not gay you declined, multiply that by a possible 20 or 30 times each day, then you may start to understand, maybe what it's like for a woman, ask any woman if what I say isn't the case.

  81. VAWA was as a result of the domestic violence and rampant numbers of women killed where women were 50% of all murders and at the hands of their loving men partners, Someone is clearly full of shite.

  82. First, not that it matters, I'm a man and a proud card carrying Feminazi Feminist, and have an earlier post of a pledge I made long ago in 1981 and again this year, because not a lot has changed for me to no longer stand by it, but I just want to ask, what can I do to help those women in Erie County, PA?Donate to the local nearby Planned Parenthood there?Or do you know someone personally in your community who could use direct help?The county health department?I'm already a member of the National PP&the PP of MD, but I was just saddened by the information about the women in your area, though I know it's everywhere, all over the world, women forced to have a family when they can ill afford it Though I hate abortions, the alternative of not having safe abortions is worse. Should I check back at this comment section for your suggestions?A health dept address maybe?I do what I can locally, but since I read your comment about your county, maybe I can do a little more that will help. Thnx. I AM not a rich man, BTW.

  83. Hmmm, You know, Xians even talk about women being obligated to have sex with their partner, that's a kind of rape by fiat isn't it, so you certainly have a point as women have sex as a duty not for their own pleasure themselves.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but if you act like a hammer you'll be constantly on the lookout for nails to pound, just sayin' There is of course nails there, but not everywhere unless you look really really hard :-)

  84. I wish you could just stop lumping men together, not all men are what you say just as not all women are doing badly as you say, even in this patriarchy, some women do fine, rightly or wrongly. You remind me a little of Madalyn O'Hair who was so objectionable that it was hard to listen as she wasn't if anything agreeable, but you don't have to to be disagreeable to make your point, hell I get it.You don't have to shove it down my throat.I agree even.

  85. I'm motivated more by compassion than anger. Anger raises your blood pressure and can damage your health long term, is that what you want? A person can object without being objectionable, right?Does anyone have rights to be angered when innocent people are subjected to the awful namecalling and hatefilled rants? What about others rights to not be subjected to your extreme anger? just sayin.

  86. I don't know Jacque, you seemed to have launched a new original sin except its only men who are guilty.There are plenty of gold digging women who take advantage of some poor schmuck with money who wants female companionship who gets taken advantage of by said gold digger.BTW, do you date much, can anyone cool you off enough to have a serious conversation that doesn't includ lashing out at men? :-) just askin'

  87. As a vulnerable human being with a beating heart, I was probably too honest here on this one trick pony forum. I was a weak enough man to admit that I was sexually abused from infancy by my biologic Mother. I’m not the only one of her offspring to admit her habitual and systemic abuse. But, I do seem to be the only one she sexually molested. She preached religious dogmas and fervently beat my former siblings in a way to make them think they might die from her out of control physical abuse.

    My reality doesn’t fit into your agenda, so I’m trash to you, right? I’m a male that does not fully buy into your narrative? I’m a male that lived under the horror and the tyranny of my abusive Mother. If a video camera had documented even one of her sexual assaults on me, she would have been sentenced to decades in prison, if not life.

    Step up on your soap box and tell me again how innocent all women are and how evil all men are. For the sake of irony, for the sake of your own ego, do it! Say it again!

  88. I forgot to mention that I was raised in the most perfect Mormon, religious home of a married man and a religious woman that both agreed with every bit of their dogma. However, if my Father ever tried to object? My Mother would always rightly emotionally bitch slap him for being the weak little bitch that he always was and still is even after her death.

    Do you think I wanted to be molested by this evil bitch? Do you think I want to see my Father this way?

    Take a knee and think about it for a millisecond, before you actively insult and assault more innocents as you predictably do in the name of your narrative.

  89. Women are so superior when it comes to feelings and nurturing, right?

    Yeah, right!

    Wake up and realize that women are the most unscrupulous cut throats when it comes to their own personal, individual agendas. Ask any Women whom the most cut throat and scheming humans that they’ve ever met have been…

    The answer always seems to be a Woman, why is that?

  90. I look forward to being proved wrong.
    Just know that I’ve never been sexualy abused by a man. I don’t personally know anyone that has admitted to being raped or sexually abused by a man. I have been sexually raped and sexually abused repeatedly by my own Mother, and I’ve been sexually propositioned by high level female figures in my own schools and our communities. A significant proportion of the women in political power have propositioned or made salacious comments to me. I still remember the disgusting sexual excitement of my biological Mother that resulted in my spilled blood over and over.

    I don’t like to see myself as a victim, but if you think you want to play the victim card here, I’m ready to “out” my “perfect dead Mother” in the community that pretended to adore her.

    I support equal rights fully! While I do not yet comprehend how you think your collective, ignorant, prejudice against one group is a superior substitute for even one functional and thinking mind among all of you.

  91. I refreshed the page and found the white cliffs of dover.
    Hold solace in the fact that when you try to fervently erase and pretend that those millions of years didn’t happen… I’ll still be here pointing my finger and laughing at you.

    The self proclaimed victim has become the offender now, are you still so arrogantly proud?

    Irony will always exist. Evidence of this irony will eventually, slowly come out at a rate that is humorous for those of us that already know that you’re an arrogant and ignorant puppet.

  92. How clean does your soul feel every time you delete or insult something? Do you feel closer to God each time?

    I know you don’t believe in such delusions, but you do sadly employ the tactics of the religious that can’t face reality honestly and with any consistent integrity, (face to face).

    My simple premise is that all men are not automatically bad.

    All women are not automatically good.

    Tell me how I’m wrong oh wise one that sounds so much like my Mother that raped and abused me and my siblings.

    This should be fun if you stand behind your words.

    I will however relish in your backstepings if you think we can’t read or if you think mere men cannot comprehend such things.

    If you wish to address me, do it with full knowledge. If you dismiss or demean me? That’s fine, but I will not be kind to you from that point forward.

    Honesty and consequences have value? no?

  93. deleted… Nothing is more synonymous with Jen than censorship.

    All weak women that call themselves feminists engage in censorship.




    My name is Jen, I’m someone that uses the term “feminist” while I never live up to the concept. I am the scared little boy that manipulatively uses the term to manipulate the honest people around me!

    Why does this dictator (JEN) always question any agenda contrary to her agenda?

    You should never believe me? Just watch her!

    I’m an Atheist, but I agree with the wise words from the bible that

    “by their fruits ye shall recognize them”…

  94. Ummmm?? Do you think I’ve not recorded this path of your hypocracy step by step?

    Are you an Ostrich? Do you believe burying your head equates to me not having text and video of your arrogant ignorance?

  95. I don’t think women are fragile nor incapable of humor nor intellectual defense of the female position.

    Ask yourself why the “boys” around you pretend to support you as they wish to fulfill you.

    Ask yourself why the “men” dismiss you as you wait to be fulfilled by the men that dismiss you.

    This is NOT an invitation for confluence. This is an invitation for you to recognize your chosen delusion.

  96. tell those bitches how much they need to wash and clean your agenda!

  97. Censor it like another weak bitch that doesn’t even know the strength of a true woman. Insult your fellow women again, but don’t pretend to call yourself a feminist or a woman with pride. Women are not cartoons to be manipulated nor exploited for your agenda. Haven’t you heard?

  98. Any honest movement needs to have human roots in truth and empowerment. Your movement fails on both counts. If the truth of my pain had been useful for you, you would have used me for your agenda.

    You’re so much like my Mother. You use people only to serve your agenda. That’s all people are for you, right? We’re just tools or toys in your playpen? We’re here as fodder for your use and amusement, right?

    What is good, right and moral means nothing to a beast like you. You overplay the victim card as you censor true victims, well done you!

  99. PZ has been on somewhat of a rampage recently against what I had previously thought to be if not his friends, definately peers. Taking quotes out of context to assert sexism amongst other undesirable traits. At first I thought maybe his personal blog had been hacked but it seems not to be the case. I have gone completely off him.

  100. Yeah! They deserve it don't they? Just like that black on black violence! You know block men are the ones most likely to commit black on black violence?

    Do you even listen to the victim blaming bigotry that comes out of your mouth

  101. I'm sorry, are you comparing being asked out for coffee to hundred's of years of racial and sexual privilege? please, please oh wise one, explain to me how being called a nigger, or a faggot (relating to people having been murdered for their differences, and beaten for believing that they should have equal rights) is even slightly analogous to someone asking someone out. Maybe you don't see that hundred's of years of opression is slightly more offensive than someone asking someone out, but in your words,

    " You don't, because you have fucking privilege."

    maybe check your own privilege before spouting your offensive, trivialising, hateful drivel

  102. Someone asked her to coffee and she labels him a misogyny? So every time I've ever asked a woman for her phone number, if I could buy her a drink etc, I've been committing misogyny and I don't even know it? Wow, I'm a real asshole. What does that make the women who have done the same thing to me?

  103. I do appreciate the high feelings something like this can cause, however I find it rather odd here that of the two, the person who has actually
    suffered sexual abuse, Dawkins,
    is being acused male privelege and not understanding the horrible pains
    of being propositioned in an elevator. Granted, he seems to have
    compartmentalized that aspect of his life to a rather remarkable extent,
    and is perhaps a bit to free in assuming others to be capable of the
    same degree of emotional detachment from their experiences. Nonetheless, the argument that Dawkins is speaking from a place of pure ignorance simply because he is a man appears to be a rather shallow one. I respect nonetheless his right to scoff, the same way I do not blame a friend of mine, who was beaten to the point of fracturing bones and persistent scars as a child, for scoffing at my despair at having been merely punched kicked and screamed at. I think genuine respect for the another person's experience demands as much.

  104. Feminism is a joke - it shows.
    How daft can these people be???

  105. None of your 13 comments were deleted, lol. I'm sitting here after stumbling upon this article 5 months later and laughing at them. So incoherent, so off the wall batshit. Are you on meds? lul.

    At least you don't try to hide the blatant mommy issues. Try therapy. There's more constructive things to do with your time than post walls of comments on articles that hurt your feelings.

  106. Then there are a hell of a lot of "clearly sick" people

  107. Utter nonsense, amerikan feminists are mental.

  108. Also, why are most feminists so fricking ugly?

  109. You're truly an idiot. I guess if a drunk guy was sleazy and leering at your mother in a lift, making her nervous, and being wide eyed with not only hope, but expectation, making her realize she is alone in a locked room with this would just say,"STFU, damn, chill lady..." If there is a hell, you will be stuck in a lift for eternity, with a hairy plumber with ass crack....and he looks at you like meat, get the rest...hahahaha. I look forward to it...

  110. I agree COMPLETELY...I'm a 42 yr old lawyer who is gay, and I proposition young men like you all the time in public...Sears, at the dentist, parking lot of the steakhouse, if they pull up next to me in a car, etc...So maybe I will run into you soon at Dunkin' Donuts, or you will deliver Chinese food to my office, or be my cute young and tender Courier. So YES!! Thanks so much for sticking up for "our kind." If we want to hit on cute young things, we should...and hope to see you soon, late at night, on the subway...Oh, and FYI, God is, of course, a WOMAN. HELL HATH NO FURY...Cheers PS - I just realized you did not know that in the English language we have a word called rape. It can be a noun (rape), infinitive (to rape), past tense (raped). I'll give you a quicky definition of this brand new word, for you....Rape it when a man is OBLIGED TO STOP...and then doesn't. It's amazing that you have never heard of it, but if you want to broaden your horizons I suggest you Google it...and you will find it is quite common, ONE IN THREE women. So yes, if you have been raped (1/3), you're aware there is a logical chance it may happen again. If you have yet to be raped, you know chances are could you could be (having interaction with the other 1/3). And you personally know/have family membrs who have been. This simple, brand new concept making any headway with your neurons? Yea, thought not...I was assuming that you even had neurons to spare. My apologies.

  111. So ... we can compare an invitation to drink a cup of coffee in a private room, with being called a fagot, a black, a Jew, etc? Wouw :/ (sorry for my bad english)

  112. You know you have that same privelege don't ya? You're clearly educated, using (probably) a nice computer to type some nice blogs about first world problems. I'm a woman and I side with Dawkins: first world problems are certainly problems and patriarchy is still existent here. But, I see a stronger reason to roll up your sleeves and go to one of the third world countries and help out women who are getting physically mutilated and/or killed in this day and age, than to ramble on about semantics. Honestly I think more feminists should take up humanist causes than to use all their brain power to find some hint of stereotypical thinking in the statements of men who are trying to the best of their ability to become more feminist. The way to progress is by working together and this can't happen if us feminists keep hating on the opposite sex...

  113. Hey you!

    Yes, you, reading this comment now, specifically you coming here through a Google search rather than a hyperlink from a different webpage: Just to confirm your suspicions, this isn't worth your time. This particular conversation. If you're thinking about going on and doing something else more productive or reading something else, this entire incident has been tremendously blown out of proportion and conflated consensus and credibility.

    As much as debating every little nook and cranny of human events is entertaining, you won't find yourself coming out of this conversation with any meaningful resolution, any new thoughts or judgements on any major figures in the Atheist community, a fundamental change in which philosophies you ascribe to and how you view feminism, or anything else useful. You will much more likely just feel that slander and exaggeration over potentially meaningful, but not quite, quibbles has abounded, and that plenty of people with good intentions and hearts in the right place have wasted their time here.

    In all seriousness, do something else. I regret this entire conversation, and there's tremendous odds that you will, too. Again, this particular dialogue literally just isn't worth it.

    Please, for your sake, don't scroll down, don't look at these comments, don't upvote or downvote, don't get yourself entangled in this hot mess of rhetoric and rage, just go ahead and do something that is much more valuable to you with the relatively short amount of time that we're all here on this little clump of rock and soil.

  114. Did you get all of that from a feminist novel? It reads like a feminist textbook, not the genuine words of a person who believes in the social uplift of women as a sub group. Let's break this down though. First, thre are countries and cultures where women are subjugated by very strong custom or by the law. This is obviously wrong; equality before the law and equal access to legal process is essential, however, that is not feminist, that's a humanist stance that focuses on equal human rights and legal rights for everyone. Then there are feminists, who want 'women to be equal' to men. The problem is, men haven't figured out equality for themselves, and men see equality in terms of the law. Hence, if a woman has the same legal rights, access to the law and is covered by legal protection in the same way a man is, then how much more equal does it get. The position your advocating is that society should legislate for women to have complete control of all gender related, sexual, communicative or interactive processes because of the possibility of perceived threats. That's sort of like the Patriot Act. I'd like some source for your 1/3 women statistic are raped and what definition of rape that uses as that is the basis for your argument and I've not found that figure anywhere.

    That men should only interact with women in areas where women feel comfortable doing so, btw is askign for exceptionalism, not equality, that men should be sensitive to a woman's requirements for no other reason than because she's a woman... and might get scared? This is the exact opposite of everything feminism meant.

  115. And there have been no women conquerors, murderers, tyrants and genocidal maniacs in history? I think you need the history lesson.

  116. Well, I'm a man, and I can't walk home at night without fear of being raped. Theft, murder and other crimes are also a problem btw. I've never received any privilege at work for being a man, in fact I've usually been told women are better suited for promotions because they're 'generally harder working'. I believe it, I don;t grudge it, but don't tell me I'm privileged when I'm not. I live in a society where women control the sexual flows, where older women control younger women and keep them subjugated for their own interests. How does that play into male privilege?

  117. You have shit for rights to be angry. As a white woman, your position is enviable to millions of brown and black men who have none of the advantages in a system geared towards global domination by white europeans and americans. Who are forced by society to marry and have children who they then have to support. Who are forced to endure the daily horrors of war and murder, fully supported by 'feminists' who believe the murder might help 'liberate' women. You're not oppressed, you're a part of the oppressing society that rules the world, and it's not made up of just men.

  118. "Women are not conquests or fuck toys."

    Tell that to the babes in music videos who earn millions dancing around naked, and who do it through conscious choice, in full awareness of their legal and other rights, and who use their sexuality to earn money. They can say no if they want to, but money money money. You want to rant, then rant against a system that exploits human sexuality, male and female, for consumer marketing.But don't tell me 'all women have it worse' because as a white woman, you have it way way better than me. As for women in my society, well let's just say they're no better or worse than the men.

  119. Bullshit. We have totally earned male privilege through 800,000 years of hunting and gathering at the risk of our lives. You've earned female privilege for an equal amount of time spent tending and mothering in relative safety. You want to overturn that, talk to the god of evolution, who decided that the homo sapien male is better suited for certain tasks than the female.

  120. Saying something is rude is very different to saying that it is sexually unethical. Is it wrong for a man to as a woman for coffee at 4 in the morning. Why should it be? Because it might make the woman uncomfortable? Then what do you say to religious fundamentalists who are uncomfortable having a man in the same elevator? Why should an exception be made for women in elevators? Because they're weaker? Because they're more prone to sexual assault? This isn't feminism.

    If he had asked about the weather and the woman interpreted it as a sexual advance, does that also qualify as sexually unethical, since it's her perception? For all we know the guy is suicidal and needed some human company.

    Again, what you're asking for is that society legislate for women to control all means and mechanisms of gender interaction or sexual activity on the basis of a 'perceived' historical oppression.

    I say perceived because history is full of oppressions. Let's take Victorian England as an example, a period many women (not feminists mind you) point to a period of strict gender roles and male domination of economic, social and political activity. Let's leave aside the fact that it's called 'Victorian England' because the head of state was the Queen (not king). Victoria as an ardent protestant, with traditionally conservative attitudes towards women's roles in society set the trends for the behaviour of women. She could have been like Liz 1, but she wasn't.

    During this period, many women will point to the oppression of women in English society, while completely ignoring the fact that these women were consciously supportive of and party to the oppression of 2/3 of the world's population, male and female. They wouldn't interact with them because of racial bias, were strongly supportive of Britain's imperial project, and in fact gained wealth and position from it. In India, it wasn't "no dog's and female Indians allowed". It was "No dogs and Indians allowed" period, for men and women.

    If we want to talk about a historically disadvantaged group, women don't qualify, because at various points in history. there have been women as part of societies that have oppressed and conquered others. They have participated in this oppression and benefited from it.

    What you're talking about are dating tips, not feminism: "Don't hit on a girl late at night on an elevator" seems right up there on the not-to-do list. But don't think it hasn't worked for other men at other times with other women. You're talking about feminism, yet your post fails the Bechtel test at every level.

  121. "Hitting on a woman, who you're alone with on an elevator at 4am, &
    asking her back to your room, is creepy, inappropriate &

    Yeah, but don't think that it hasn't worked for other men at other times. Or that it necessarily represents a sexual advance. Maybe the man wanted company. The posters here automatically assume a man has to interact with women based on sex without recognizing that men need emotional support, friendships and love like anybody else.

  122. For all you know he could be suicidal and on the vrege of killing himself and desperately in need of human company. Since the majority of suicides globally are men, might not be that far our. In any case, how does this have anything to do with feminism? These are more like dating tips.

  123. If you call what you're currently doing 'speaking your mind' then no wonder. Did you ever consider it's not because you're a woman, it's because you're rude, angry, sexist and ignorant?

  124. Thank you. There are real problems regarding the abuse of women that should appeal to all people who believe in human rights, equality before the law and sexual freedom as unregulated by the state. It's not a female specific thing and I truly appreciate it when educated, wealthy women realise that there are women in the world who don't have these basic rights. The right to not be catcalled is really an ignorant teenagers whining.

  125. "You should know damn well that the majority of the violence in the world
    is directed at men, yet the VAST majority of public opinion and support
    in all its forms goes to women." oh boy that reads trollish indeed because the majority of violence in the world is directed at men by other men and guess what the majority of violence in the world directed at women by men.See the difference? Then again I might be wrong

  126. hey its been 10 month and she hasn't even acknowledged your comment? maybe she is full of shit after all

  127. "No, you are not allowed to proposition women whenever and wherever you feel like it." - Says who?

    "You should keep your infantile mouth shut and wait for a proper, non-threatening context to present itself. Like say, a singles mixer, or a dance, or some other event where people go to meet for companionship."

    - And if people meet outside of this, they must be rapists? You do realise that most people do not go to "singles mixer" or a party to find companionship?

    Many, many people meet on the train, the bus, at work, parks. In fact, most marriages result from people meeting outside of these designated venues.

    "Propositioning a woman on an elevator shows complete retardation," - Why? He found he interesting, and he wanted to know her. Does he wait, stalking her for her to go to these single-mixers or a dance party to see if she is interested?

    "selfishness and lack of self-control. If a man is so beholden to his penis that he can't control himself in the presence of women, then he should commit himself for medical treatment because he is clearly sick." - You flatter yourself far too much. There is no "lack of self-control", just a normal person asking someone if they wanted to have coffee because they found that individual interesting.

    Again, countless men AND women meet in the most unexpected and public places. In the last week alone I have seen three women asking three very handsome men from my course if they wanted to spend time getting to know them. Hell, when I asked my boyfriend out, I did it at a library. Maybe we should admit so many normal people to the hospital because we're so "sick".

  128. "Excuse me while I go have a laugh/cry fit.

    Every rape, molestation, and/or harassment victim ever." - Yes, and saying you're not allowed to proposition people anywhere is really going to stop a rapist, molester or a sexual harasser, right?

    Decent people are MORALLY obliged to stop, why take this down the rapist/molester road?

  129. "Obliged by whom, Batman?" - By decent moral behaviour.

    "Are you too dense to realize that this is exactly why it's a bad idea to cold proposition women at night, in isolated spaces?"

    - Right, because men are roaming around waiting in elevators to rape women. Then you'll turn around and tell us that all men aren't rapists.

    "Until sexual assault statistics and attitudes about it change significantly, women are perfectly justified in mistrusting poorly behaved strangers."

    -First of all, women aren't the only ones that suffer from sexual assault, and neither do they hold the monopoly. Secondly, I wouldn't call asking someone to coffee poor behaviour. I would have understood if this was in a jungle with no one for miles. However, as usual, there is someone to provide others with a cloak of victimhood.

  130. Except this person wasn't drunk, wasn't leering or being sleazy. This person politely asked someone he found interesting to coffee. The person that is really sick here is you, as you seem to be wishing violence on other people.

  131. "And throughout much of history, raping women and pillaging villages in the name of conquest and imperialism IS what contributed to this shit-filled misogynist cesspool you call a society today — " --Citation needed.

    "male unjust enrichment and benefit at the expense of women and girls' human rights." --Which you felt more than happy to piggy back off of. Providing for you, dying for you and feeding you, all of it came at the expense of women and girls' human rights. Lol!

    The computer you are using is actually built by men and so is the internet. Can we expect you to give up a tool created by an oppressive male? Nope, you won't, you'll continue complaining while leeching off of male achievement.

  132. "you are inherently privileged as a man, and you don't have the same struggle that women do" - Yes, like the privilege of serving in the army with women who are allowed in on lower standards. The privilege of having less healthcare aimed at men, the privilege of making up 78% of the homeless. Maybe the privilege of being the victim of overwhelming violent crime?

    Man, I must be so privileged! Let's rejoice! I can already smell this privilege and I say this as a brown man who was once an untouchable in India. Boy o boy, I'm certainly more privileged than all these white women whining!

  133. "The oppressor has NO fucking right to dictate to the oppressed" - Citation needed.

    "I have every right to be angry." - Only in your mind, like most spoiled western children throwing a tantrum.

  134. My, my. Ignorance and hatred all in one, well done. You are, of course, more than welcome to start your own female society with all the other downtrodden, oppressed princesses who would have invented everything if some man didn't shackle them to a maternity bed. I would love to visit your mud hut utopia after you all get through making sure everyone gets an equal share of pine combs, sea shells, and warm feelings your economy will be based on.

  135. So...that's no to coffee, then?

  136. Would be great if western society followed the male Japanese model of courtship. Don't do it. Japan is now facing a waning population crisis with over half the country's male members stating they are not interested nor are they in a relationship with women. Who are the complainers in this scenario? You guessed it. Feminists. Men are evading their responsibility and other non sense.

  137. Just goes to show that men like Dawkins prefer to demonize brown people in other countries rather than examine their own flaws and prejudices.

  138. If a woman is alone and trapped with a stranger who propositions her, she's going to get anxious. Look up rape statistics if you think that's irrational.

    Free speech means people are free to hold you accountable for what you say. If a man can't understand how creepy that is, he's not a terrible person necessarily but he has some learning to do. Hopefully he understands now. If he doesn't and just passes it off as whiny, he's thick. Richard Dawkins seems exceedingly thick here.

  139. I believe Jacqueline S. Homan has some sort of mental/psychological issues - maybe Bi-Polar or Paranoid Schizphrenia
    She's a big fan of Andrea Dworkin's - and after reading her articles and posts, I can see why. They both have deep seated issues and paranoid persecution complexes.

    .I first saw a couple of her posts on alternet and she's always going into these crazy long rants about her being, sexually abused, forced into a prostitution as a teen, a victim of physical and psychological abuse and all poor women are victims. I initially had sympathy for her but she kept getting more and more extreme and would never seriously consider that men might be victims also.

    And she allows no one to actually debate her or get their own points across - she's like the MOST abused poor white woman.... EVER....of all time.
    And NO man has ever suffered as bad as she has...EVER...

    She listed the links to her 'work' on her Blog - so I went to check it out.

    What's curious is that on her website, she has some selfie pictures taken. She's in her 40's, kind of chubby and she's wearing these skimpy tank-tops. and she has very large breasts that are about to fall out of the tank top.
    And she's really defensive about it - someone else made a comment about her 'revealing' pictures being contradictory to her radical feminist stance. She replied that if someone wants her to wear another shirt, they can buy her one because she's poor.

    Anyway, her Blog is all the same thing - she goes into these long screeds, ranting about her abusive past, her poverty and lack of opportunity and the lack of opportunity for all poor females, the injustice of men controlling women's contraception and abortion rights.
    Then she really starts to go off the rails and starts ranting about how pregnancy is damaging and unhealthy to a woman's body and that Motherhood and raising children is a tyranny.
    I kept thinking, 'OK, Ok, so then don't have kids.'

    Every article she writes is the same way.

    She must be intelligent (or just obsessed) because she's written a couple of books guessed it - The oppression of Women by society, religion, men, etc.
    Although she did write a 1st person book about her involvement with a man convicted of gay-bashing someone to death.
    Apparently, she fell in love with this killer and believed in his innocence - until she figured out he WAS guilty. She doesn't seem to have good judgement or taste in men.

    Most of the reader reviews at Amazon gave her 5 stars, although a few of them gave her 1 or 2 stars and criticized her writing for lack of focus, faulty reasoning and going on a rant.
    I suspect she or her friends wrote the 5 star reviews.

  140. OK, here's the thing: yes, you're allowed to ask a woman for coffee. Some women are OK with casual sex and cold pick-ups. The thing you may not fully appreciate is that to a woman, any man could be a rapist. No, not *every* man is a rapist, but *any* man could be.

    Women are on defense constantly, because 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted. It is commonplace. Until we get to know a man-- had long conversations with him, have mutual friends, build trust-- we have to assume they might try to rape us. Because statistics and experience say they might.

    If you accept the rejection and walk away, you are not a monster, you're one of the few guys doing it right. We don't know beforehand whether saying "no" will result in you walking away, or stabbing us to death.

    I've personally been propositioned twice while alone in a moving car with the male driving. Both times, they did not take rejection well. They questioned my reasons, tried to argue with me, and then insulted me.Thankfully they didn't assault me, just sulked.

    They didn't mean to trap me, and being upset about rejection is natural. I think men are insecure about being rejected, so they want to ask in a private place like an elevator or car where they can't be publicly humiliated if the girl says no. I sympathize with that, since I'm pretty shy too. The thing is... while it's comforting for the guy, it can be terrifying for the girl.

    All Watson was saying is please be sensitive about this. You honestly don't know what it's like to be at the mercy of every man who takes a sexual interest in you (unless you've been to prison and faced constant rape threats as a male). It's intimidating, and if you don't want a woman to think, "Is this guy going to rape me?", then don't proposition her when she's alone and trapped. Do it in a public place, when she's with friends. Avoid asking for sex, or to be alone with her (i.e. go back to your place). Ask for a date at a cafe, during daylight hours. That will put most women at ease. And if she says no, please keep being a gentleman and walking away! :)

  141. Shut up, sex object.

  142. as Kant did say* we'll be the winners in both situations,

    1-if we'll find our God after this life we win,

    2-if we'll find nothing there we'll be a winners too and you'll find yourselves the biggest losers forever!

  143. as Kant did say* we'll be the winners in both situations,

    1-if we'll find nothing there we'll be a winners too.

    2-if we'll find our God after this life we win, and you'll find yourselves the biggest losers forever!

  144. I may be a bit silly, but I don't, honestly, understand the issue. As a woman, I do not understand the problem with being asked out by a man. Did he, in fact, proposition her? Did he crudely say, "Hey baby, wanna come back to my place and get it on?" Is there some assumption that asking for coffee is somehow code for bad things? I may be inexperienced in these things, having been abused and molested and all, but either there's something I'm missing from this story, or someone is getting a little out of hand with this. I welcome any polite conversation on this matter.

  145. Richard Dawkins, one of the most universally reviled men on the planet for his outspoken lack of theism doesn't understand that "words matter" and has never been the target of inflammatory speech? Um... whaaaaa??

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  150. Oh Jesus Christ... asking a woman to have coffee ISN'T A PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH.

  151. Richard Dawkins receives an enormous amount of very personal and spiteful hatemail and laughs it off like any sane person should. Some of which would probably fucking "trigger" your poor sensitive little soul. Fuck off with your privilege myth and stop using it as a way to excuse yourself from the responsibility of being a fucking failure in life. Welcome to the real world. Open your eyes. You aren't being oppressed, you are just an insignificant speck like the rest of humanity. Get over it.

    - White heterosexual male.

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